Wet Dream MK1

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Lex
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Wet Dream MK1

Lex
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G'day fellow Board builders. This post is a bit of a long time coming, but here is my first DIY Board project entitled "Wet Dream" mk1----because im sure there will be improved versions ;). WD logo So to start off i best describe my board design. The Board is a 134 TwinTip aimed at free style and free ride. Its a bit of a mix of attributes i loved from all boards iv owned and ridden. The rocker is borrowed from a Jaime Pro, Outline from a Laluz and concave from a Naish Momentum (i.e None). Of course they have been tweaked with my own personal touch but that's the basis.

THE DESIGN

The design was all done using CNC machines and CAD software to improve accuracy and symmetry.

THE CORE

An initial blank was produced from MDF to confirm minor tweaks and amendments seen here in black. and to confirm ABS side wall recesses ( RED). Once the revisions were programed in i went about routing my final core. The core was made from NUPLEX end grain pro balsa sheet. The balsa sheet had a 2OZ E-glass backing which proved to be a pain when routing causing some issues but were resolved in post shaping. THE RAILS

Sorry.. there are no pictures of this. Pretty much they were routed from a 1000x1000x4.5 sheet of ABS which was extremely expensive. The initial designed called for them to be routed in quarters then joined but upon more research i found out the neat little tip of dissolving ABS in Acetone. If I was to do this again i would probably cast the rails using this technique but for the time being i just used it to join the rails together. Thats all for now guys. More to come shortly.
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Re: Wet Dream MK1

downunder
Thanks Lex for contributing !

You are a pro!
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Re: Wet Dream MK1

mattma
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Great stuff! Looking forward to seeing it progress and then out on the water !!

Very cool to have access to such great toys to built it with!

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Re: Wet Dream MK1

PeterJ
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Nice.
Makes me want to draw up one from Matts design tool and cut it out with my cnc
Peterj - Road to ride
Lex
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Re: Wet Dream MK1

Lex
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Ok guys, sorry for the delay between posts. Sadly between the office and the garage im finding little time to blog.


INSERTS



So its become pretty damn apparent through reading forums and researching board building anythings that finding a decent M6 316 Stainless insert is very difficult. Since i work in product design and Development i put my issue to some of my suppliers and i got sent back a bag of M6 large flange Nutserts in 316 :D. Was very stoked by this.  The Nutserts were 14mm high 9mm in diameter with a 13.3mm Flange when pulled up they came to an even 10mm. By using a lathe i was able to trim them down further to suite my core perfectly and using a common file i gave them a flat spot to prevent rotating. They were around 2.5ea but can come down in price if i have to buy in bulk. so let me know if your interested.




the inserts were filled with pastecine and potted into the board using West System 105 With 206 Hardener mixed with 403 filler.   I had used the router to cut nice recessed holes to seat the inserts so no jigging was required.

SHAPING


Shaping was quick and simple using a painting electric sander and a block of wood. The goal was to make the 10mm core taper off to a 4mm core by the tips with a significant reduction of the thickness occurring perpendicular to the last insert. To ensure max bond to the ABS the balsa rails were chamfered and swept until they were tangent with the ABS rails to reduce the stress in the glass and increase the surface area bonded.









Lex
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Re: Wet Dream MK1

Lex
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ROCKER TABLE



The Rocker Table was designed using the CNC router once again. ( I don't mean to rub it in  but there are plenty of places who will do this for you. and symmetry and accuracy is key). The rocker table is made from 18mm MDF and is designed with a notching pattern to make sure the jig is true, straight and sturdy. The top surface is a 3mm Acrylic top which works perfectly with a wax mold release. I don't really know how to describe my rocker but if anyone is interested i can email the DWG files. Table measures around 1700 x 800.






NOW THE FUN PART



TESTING/SAMPLING



IMPORTANT: Im no expert, this is my first time using a vacuum bag.

So to test my setup out i prepared a reasonable copy of the construction of my board and prepared the resins and layup according to my "best guess". While i'm sure you have all vacuum bagged before I wont bore you by being too descriptive about my process.

Resins: West Systems 105 with 206 Hardener
Mold Release: Wax
Tape: Yellow Mastic vacuum bagging tape

BASE LAYER

Resin dyed with a royal blue
2 x 6OZ E-Glass (Final Layup will be S-glass)

TOP LAYER

Clear Resin
2x6OZ E-Glass ( Final Layup will be S-glass)
Peel Ply
Breather
Strecheon Vacuum film

I used a SUPER AWESOME cast Alu self piercing connector.





VERDICT



SUPER STRONG

The test went very well but i had some issues with the surface finish both top and bottom.

the bottom of the piece showed some wetting issues with minescule air bubbles being trapped. The type of wax used has now been changed to a higher quality one that can accept PVA and will have  to show more care with the wetting out.

Also to note: The blue i Used was horribly close to the colour and look of water. so now its going to be a solid red colour on the base.


The top of the piece showed large buildup and a texture that seems to of come from the bleeder. I attributed this to the Peel Ply being used. The Peel ply used in this layup was a solid plastic sheet. upon further research I realized that i should of been using a perforated peel ply to remove excess resin and allow more flow throughout the board so that now has been fixed up.

The bonding to the ABS was incredibly strong. I did all i could to destroy this test piece and the abuse its taking is very promising.

Cheers for reading, more to come when i finish.

If anyone wants any info on CNC, Materials,techniques or want my files please feel free to contact me on alexharrisonsmith@gmail.com






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Re: Wet Dream MK1

downunder
Good read, well done!

It would be extremely valuable if you point us where to buy SUPER AWESOME cast Alu self piercing connector:))

Is it possible to use a quick connector with it:





Many thanks!

D.
Lex
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Re: Wet Dream MK1

Lex
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Sure is Downunder. I bought that one with a few other bits an pieces from www.fiberglasssupply.com
http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/Product_Catalog/Vacuum_Bagging/vacuum_bagging.html
it has a threaded end to it so it should be compatible with the quick lock.
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Re: Wet Dream MK1

mattma
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Hey Lex

Mate, thanks for sharing so much great detail. Its very cool being able to see things as you progress it and especially seeing the experiments 'cause its the error part of the trial and error is where so much learning is to be had.

Just a couple of random thoughts on things you mentioned. As you discovered you definitely need to use permeable material on top of the board.  You've probably read about in your research already but peel ply refers to woven, typically nylon material that's treated with release agent. Perforated release film is the perforated plastic you mentioned. As I understand it the main difference how easily excess resin passes through. If your using perforated release film you need to squeeze as much excess resin out as possible otherwise it will get trapped under the film and leave the surface uneven. If you can get it right the finish, straight off the table is much closer to final ( less work to finish) than peel ply that leaves the weave pattern on the surface. However, the peel ply allows you to rely on the vacuum to squeeze more excess resin out so its easier to get better resin ratios which means stronger and lighter and its a better surface if you are thinking of a protective coating on top like some PU coating. Its also worthing noting that most epoxies are not UV stabilised so if you don't want it to yellow ( i actually like the antique look it gives) then you'll need to explore some sort of UV coating for it.

In the production set-ups where they have the top and bottom plastic skins, they use high temps and lots of pressure to squeeze out the excess resin to get the strength. Mirsad at Navis board uses resin designed to cure at 90 C and under 90 PSI pressure.

I've also found that any breather/bleeder material that you use on top that is not a uniform density can also leave the surface uneven. I've used polyester wadding (quilt stuffing), felt underlay from carpet and paper towel as breather material. All of which are not not very homogeneous and in both cases the imprint was left on the board. Strangely the paper towel was the best of it and only  left imprints where I overlapped the paper. FGI sell breather material that is the duck's nuts and works like a charm and I think its pretty cheap too.

Air bubbles are tough to get rid of, in part because these resins go off so quickly that by the time you're finished assembling the board the the resin on the bottom is already so much more viscous that it really hard to squeeze resin let along air bubbles out. I can highly recommend getting a fibreglass roller. Its like a small paint roller but the roller is metal and has groves on it. You work the wetted out glass with it until the popping of bubbles stops so that you don't rely on the vacuum to pull the bubbles out.

Great timing to be finishing you board too with the wind starting to kick in. Will you have it ready for the Season Opener at Narra?


Lex
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Re: Wet Dream MK1

Lex
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G'day Matt, Thankyou for all the info. For the test i was using a "release bag" because i thought at the time that it was the same thing as peel ply  my bad. For the final layup i think i will be using a perf ply and a peel ply over the top to remove excess resin and keep the top surface shmik.

The UV issues are a real B*tch. There seams to be no real solution to this except for post painting the board. And while this solution works, it is definitely not permanent. The best solution i have read is to use a 2 part liniar Polyurethane  but this has its own application issues (dry time and surface finish) and is still only rated for around 4years and "not for constant below water use". While you can limit the aesthetic impact of the UV discoloration by pigmenting the epoxy it will still always discolor sadly. Seems like the only way to deal with it is to take in on the chin. For most of us i should hope that out next projects are almost finished before the previous one deteriorates .

If anyone has any Info or ideas please share. I'm hopefully doing the final layup this Sunday so any info would be awesome. And yes Matt, shall bring it to the season opener and will be test riding it at Old Bar next weekend.
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Re: Wet Dream MK1

mattma
Administrator
Hey Lex

I can see that you to have studied extensively in the university of google with a minor in hard knocks!!! What would be do without.

Can't wait to see it in action. You will have the title of being the first board to be documented and finished on the forum! I'd be putting that on the CV!

Cheers
Lex
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Re: Wet Dream MK1

Lex
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OK, Well the final glassing was done over this weekend and to great success bar one neglected factor :(.

The first place for me to start is to explain some changed i mad since my test piece. first was the vacuum bag connection. I decided to spruce this up with some fancy connections and a gauge so i can monitor my pressure and also look for any leaks in my system.



The next change was to the Layup. My layup was;

1. s-glass 5.8oz
2. s-glass 5.8oz
3. e-glass 6oz
4. Board core
5. Carbon foot bad support and flex control (+decal)
6. e-Glass 6oz
7. e-glass 6oz
8. s-glass 5.8oz
____________.........
9. Perf-Ply
10. Peel Ply
11. Breather
12. Strecheon bagging film.


Overall verdict, if great flex pattern ;)


Third, was a colour change to red over the awfully water coloured "royal blue" i had.

So before i show my final Board in process i would like to discuss my terrible oversight so i may prevent this happening to the rest of you.

MAKE SURE YOUR CORE IS SOLID/ CLOSED CELL

I had originally intended my board to be a nice solid red on the base and a beautiful wood grain look on the top. because my core was a (form-ply) style end grain balsa, as soon as the vacuum pulled up on it it drew the red resin from the base through the core giving me a red splotchy finish on the top.

NOW THE BOARD (sorta)
 Here you can see the Red being pulled through.




Now just to trim it and build it.... followed by shredding it





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Re: Wet Dream MK1

downunder
Ouch!

That's ok, not to worry! A bit of paint and she'll be all right. I think even if you seal your wood with epoxy sealer it might drew some resin, so the only option is to pre-make a topsheet. Or shopping for a real thing, like Durasurf.


How does it flex?


What's the yellow tape? Is it like a BlueTack, easy to remove after?

D.
Lex
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Re: Wet Dream MK1

Lex
G'day Downwinder. I will take a bit of a video of the flex when i get the time and the core profile. As for the yellow tape. its mastic tape for bag sealing. Kind of a sticky bluetack so you get a complete seal no matter what the shape (and overlaps).
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Re: Wet Dream MK1

mattma
Administrator
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Hey Lex

Congrats on the first of hopefully many boards and great threads. Not long now till you get it out on the water at Old Bar!!!

What was the surface finish like straight off the table? Any air bubbles?

You could mix up some other tints and splash them over the board and play up the art angle:) A few decals and stickers and it will make it look very street!

Can't wait to see it out there.

Matt



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Re: Wet Dream MK1

Kevnkite
Hey Lex,
shame about the colour pulling through,it does remind of the hippy tie-dyed T-shirts tho.
Great build by the way,all the best finishing it off.
Cheers,
Kev.
Lex
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Re: Wet Dream MK1

Lex
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Ok guys, pardon the lateness of this post but i have been busy at work and needed to thoroughly put the board through its paces before i can adequately report on its performance.

Overview of the layup;

The layup went great, i was a bit slow i think with the wetting out of each layer but i was lucky to have a partner (good old dad) jump in to assist. The fact that the red pulled though has actually been getting a lot of positive feedback as a graphic ( mostly from men who love horror movies) so i'm not so upset about that anymore. Adhesion to the ABS appears to be very tight using just alcohol to clean it. On the  underside of the board are little Pitts (between fibers). These had occurred on my test sample but i was under the impression with a new perf-ply layer the pitts would be removed under vacuum. Whilst it is better than the sample it did not remove all. ( comments?).  The top layer was great however more attention needed to be given to laying the perf-ply as some wrinkles came through onto the board.

PUT REINFORCEMENTS UNDER YOUR INSERTS PEOPLE. I did not and the inserts are pulling up from the base causing small divets. However this does not affect the ride of the board it does ruin a perfect glossy base.

More on the Board

Cutting it out
For this i Used a jigsaw with a hacksaw blade to do the initial rough cut followed by a file to trim it clean with the ABS side walls. In order to locate the inserts through the dark carbon top layer, I actually drilled with a 1.0mm drill from the bottom to mark the holes then come in through the top with a 3.0mm drill and countersinking bit to find center. (digging the plasticine out was a B*tch).

FLEX
The flex ended up being almost spot on through the center with a bit of leeway to be a touch stiffer. The tips however was only slightly more flex able than the center despite being 3-4mm thinner. In hindsight I would thin them out a little further and start the thinning process earlier.

RIDE
The board rides great, the outline really seems to handle well in all conditions. It does not feel like a performance freestyle board but instead feels solid and stable under feet. The rocker and flex in the board makes it a darling in the chop and on a wave face however lacks the responsiveness and aggression to throw unhooked tricks properly.  At high speeds the board becomes loose and tricky. This could mean I require larger fins or perhaps the lack of concave through the center is making it slip. Will be trying largest fins next ride but for future projects I will NOT be neglecting the value of concave.

So far I have done;
 Big air Railys
S-Bends
Kite loops
4-5 foot swell with a solid beach dump
And run aground

And it’s still holding strong :D . so I highly recommend Balsa cores and S-glass Layups.

That is all I think, hope you guys enjoyed reading about it. MK2 on the computer screen as we speak.
any questions or more deatils just shoot them through here or via alexharrisonsmith@gmail.com






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Re: Wet Dream MK1

downunder
Nice reading Lex!

It's great to read about the ride as well. Hey, a big air railys my knees wouldn't survive:)

About the inserts, yes, reinforcement is a must. Personally, I cut a bit of FG and place the insert through the fiber. It's visible but not too much.

Perf-ply is easy to work with when there is no bridging involved between the two layers. After a few boards should be perfect:)

Have fun!

D.

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Re: Wet Dream MK1

mattma
Administrator
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Hey Lex

Excellent write up, especially all the detail of the handling. Whats the plan for MK2 - what's different, whats the same?

Air bubbles on the underside are tough one to crack and I've asked a few folks about this and the general concensus is that with just 1 atmosphere vac at most the surface tension of the air bubbles trapped between where the fibres cross or created if the fibres are not saturated with resin and pull void into the same will make it near impossible to suck them out. Especially near the middle of the board as the distance they would need to travel a long way to get out.


The things that I find that have helped alot but not 100% are:

i) Use a resin roller. You will hear immediately the bubbles of air being popped as you work it back and forward. This makes a big difference in ensuring you saturate all the fibres.
ii) Wet out the surface of the mold with resin before you put the first layer of glass down to help saturate the fibres from the bottom which is more difficult to get the resin to from above. Can be a pain to do if the surface of you mold causes the resin to bead. I've tried putting down the resin and letting it go off quite a bit before I put glass down and started the rest of the layup
iii) stiched glass seems much less prone to it than ordinary woven cloth (and its stronger)
iv) a bit of a cheat and I had mixed success ( it had no visible voids but it also trapped a lot of resin) is to make opaque pre-cured skins for the bottom. You can encapsulate your graphics in it at the same time.

I'm still not completely sure of the roll that concave plays and would be keen on hearing other peoples views. For modest amounts (< thickness of the board) I'm thinking that the main contribution is to stiffness and how the water moves away from under the board if you land flat. Granted it may give a small amount more angle the rail digs in but I just can't imagine that the impact is that great compared to the shape of the rail and stiffness which I reckon impact how much lifting force there is over the length of the rail. And fins change in such large increments that it would seem to swamp the affect of the concave. What do others reckon???

Matt

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Re: Wet Dream MK1

plummet
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coool. i want your CNC ability! mmmmh cnc.
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